Oh yeah, and I have to choose Lo and Hi throttle points.  I think I saw 30% for Lo and 50% for Hi.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Scott are you boosted or not?  If you are boosted it will be kinda hard to do without a datalogger.  If you are n/a it will be a little easier.  What I would suggest is buy a wideband and also a AFR wideband gauge.  Then whip out a video camera and zoom it in on the gauge and your rpms.  Do a pull.  Check out what the AFR was at for each rpm point you want to tune, then adjust accordingly.

The way I see it, it's easier and SAFER to do with a datalogger.  It is already dangerous enough to be speeding on open roads.  Right?

not boosted but already installed my wideband. haha well maybe ill get a camera hooked up and record.

Scott what do you have for a wideband?  Do you have an afr gauge?  And I am assuming you have a neo or safcII?

yeah you only get 12, but you can spread them out a bit. I started at 1000, and worked up in 400 rpm increments.

I will copy it over

-Closed loop is basically when the ECU is adjusting the AFR for stoich (ideal ratio) which is approx 14.7. The ECU is in closed loop during low RPMs/low load/low TPS.
-Open loop is when the ECU goes to a preplanned map based on RPM, TPS. Because there is a higher load on the engine, the fuel mixture gets richer as a safety measure. The ECU uses open loop for high RPM, high TPS, high load.
-The exact switchover point varies but its approximately 3,000 rpm, under high TPS. With a wideband, you can watch this happen. Floor the car from idle and you'll see the AFRs keep adjusting for 14.7ish until around 3,000rpm and then they'll get alot richer as the car goes to a preplanned map.
-This scheme gets more complicated because the ECU is monitoring AFRs via the primary O2 sensor. If it sees a gross deviation from what it "expects" to see in AFRs it will start to add/subtract fuel back to achieve what it believes is the ideal AFR. Thats why you'll start to see your tune drift over time with the O2 sensors left in. If the ECU can't adjust the fuel trims to achieve its desired AFR then you'll actually throw an SES light for "bank1 lean" or "bank1 rich"


-Its essentially futile to tune your car while its in closed loop, the car will automatically adjust instantaneously to 14.7ish AFR. You'll just be fighting the ECU and the ECU will win everytime. Thats why most people start tuning aroun 3,000rpm. Under WOT, thats approx the RPM the ECU will go into open loop and use the preplanned map. Its this preplanned map that you're attempting to alter by fooling the ECU into thinking that there more/less air going into the engine than in reality (the basis that the SAFC uses to adjust AFRs).
-The SAFC allows you tune based on two factors: RPM and Throttle Position
-LO throttle position is where you want the SAFC to start tuning.
-HI throttle position is where you want the max amount fuel added or subtracted.
-In between your low and high throttle positions the SAFC will interpolate a value and apply that correction.
-LO throttle position is really up to you. Some people want the SAFC to start correcting, even if they're not mashing the pedal to the floor. Some people set it to a high percentage so if the SAFC will only correct when they're really on the gas.
-Usually 50% is a good value to use for your HI correction. Above 50% throttle, above 3,000 rpm you're usually in open loop and you'll want your full correction applied.
-There are alot of different theories for tuning with the SAFC. I was using 10% LO throttle and 50% HI throttle. I started pulling fuel at 3,000 rpm.


-The SAFC doesn't know if your in open loop or closed loop. It looks at what rpm you're at and what your throttle position is to make corrections.
-Basically, you do a wide open run from idle to redline.
-Using a wideband, you'll see that at around 3,000 rpm the AFRs will drop to around 11.5 or so all the way to redline.
-It's at that rpm that you want to start making your corrections - thats the point that your car goes into open loop at WOT.

Sorority Demon wrote:

ne points determine what rpm you change a setting. you have 12 to choose at 200 rpm incriments.

lo/hi throttle, 2 different throttle postions at which the safc makes an adjustment. typically this is 20-50% low and 50-100% high. low is below that %, high is above that %. I think it does a similar "curve" thing inbetween

hotwire setting

I have an in/out of 1/1, so I don't know about any higher settings.

The way you describe throttle position differs from how I thought it worked...and you may be right. I haven't had an SAFC for almost a year so I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics.

Summary:

I thought the LO throttle is where the SAFC starts tuning, HI is where it reaches the full correction you've input for that RPM and it interpolates between those values.

You're saying that up to the LO % it applies the LO map, and above the HI % it applies the high map and in between it interpolates.

I need to double check that...I think you may be right though

This is what I use to tune my other car. it might have a little more detail then what you can do with the safc but someone might find it usefull.

Setting Initial Parameters:
Setup wideband operation within dsmlink.
If needed, change BoostEst to your respective engine size.  (2.0L, 2.3L)
Set the A/F Ratio prefs for your injectors.
If base timing is off, adjust timing sliders across the board to compensate.  (if 3, add 2)
If needed, cancel out any CEL’s due to already known causes.  (such as rear O2)
For safety and if desired, set Knock CEL to 3 degrees knock.
Set global and dead time parameters according to specifications for injectors.
Set desired values to be logged.





Closed Loop Tuning (Cruise/Idle):
Setup DSMLink to Log the following (if available):
a.    TPS
b.    STFT
c.    LTFT Lo
d.    LTFT Mid (2G) or LTFT Hi (1G)
e.    MAFRaw
f.    Wideband
g.    Boost sensor (GM 3 bar, AEM, etc.)
Turn on vehicle and let warm properly.
Drive normally, cruising for at least 10 minutes - Do not go WOT
Let car idle for 5 minute before shutting it off - Stop logging
Choose your method of closed loop tuning by first determining if AirflowPerRev is at an acceptable value at idle. If AirflowPerRev is not acceptable, evaluate whether adjusting fuel trims with airflow sliders will improve the idle AirFlowPerRev value. If airflow adjustments will improve AirFlowPerRev, begin tuning using step 4 of Method 1.  If AirflowPerRev is acceptable, proceed to step 4 of Method 2.


Method 1 – Airflow Metering:
1.    Turn on vehicle and let warm properly.
2.    Begin logging.  Drive normally, cruising for at least 10 minutes - Do not go WOT
3.    Let car idle for 5 minute before shutting it off - Stop logging
4.    Compare LTFT for idle (Lo) and cruise (Mid) operations – Strive to get as close to 0% as possible.  (1Gs are limited to a minimum of -4.7% fuel trim and should therefore strive to attain a slightly positive fuel trim; 0 - +5%)
5.    If either is greater than  5% from 0%, proceed to step 6. If not, and your happy with your %, you may stop.
6.    If LTFT  Lo is negative, decrease the 50 Hz slider in the amount of that value.  (i.e. If LTFT Lo is -10%, decrease the 50 Hz slider from 0% to -10%).
7.    If LTFT Mid is positive, increase the 150 Hz slider in the amount of that value.  (i.e.  If LTFT Mid is 10%, increase the 150 Hz slider from 0% to 10%). 
Or:    (From method 2)  If LTFT  Lo is greater than LTFT Mid, increase dead time. If LTFT Lo is less then LTFT Mid, decrease dead time.
8.    If adjustments are made, return to step 1.


Method 2 – Fuel Delivery:
Turn on vehicle and let warm properly.
Begin logging.  Drive normally, cruising for at least 10 minutes - Do not go WOT
Let car idle for 5 minute before shutting it off - Stop logging
4.    Compare LTFT for idle (Lo) and cruise (Mid) operations – Strive to get as close to 0% as possible. (1Gs are limited to a minimum of -4.7% fuel trim and should therefore strive to attain a slightly positive fuel trim; 0 - +5%)
5.    If either is greater than  5% from 0%, proceed to step 6. If not, and your happy with your %, you may stop.
6.    If LTFT  Lo is greater than LTFT Mid, increase dead time. If LTFT Lo is less then LTFT Mid, decrease dead time.  (If dead time is adjusted, adjust the A/F props settings for the new value).
7.    If LTFT Lo and LTFT Mid are equal but non-zero, adjust global setting.
8.    If adjustments are made, return to step 1.


Open Loop Tuning (WOT) Fuel & Timing:
Choose a desired fuel/octane level.
Choose a desired boost level that you want to run. Dial your boost in at a lower boost setting to begin with, depending on turbo size, probably no more than 1 bar.
(An alternate to the previous method is to start at your target boost level with conservative settings, i.e. low timing and rich mixture.  Make a few pulls before tuning to ensure safe operation before continuing with this method).
Choose a proper A/F Ratio to shoot for in the entire RPM range – Some common A/F ratios are 10:1, 10.5:1, 11:1, 11.3:1, 11.5:1. The proper A/F ratio will depend on your specific vehicle and its setup. While there are too many variables to list when determining a proper A/FR, some of the common ones are fuel octane, intercooler efficiency, and turbo size. In most cases, on a properly running DSM, on pump gas with an efficient intercooler, an 11:1 A/FR is a common and safe ratio to make good power with.
Ensure that all values you want to log are set.  (The following are recommended).
a.  Wideband
b.  Boost sensor
c.  EGT
After warming the car properly (warm car, drive at cruise for 10 min., idle for 5 min.), data log a 3rd gear pull from 2000 RPM to redline. Keep a very close eye on Knock, A/FR, and EGT’s for anything that might spell trouble.
If you see ANY Knock, increase fuel sliders. If A/FR is already richer than your target, reduce timing by a degree instead of increasing fuel.
If no Knock is present and your A/FR is leaner than your target, increase fuel to desired level. If A/FR is richer than your target, and you’re at your target boost PSI, decrease fuel.
Allow car to cool down between runs.  (Number of runs between cool down periods will be dependant on intercooler efficiency and boost level, among other things.  Not doing this will result in inconsistent results).
Continue logging runs in this manner until you reach your target A/FR with no Knock.
Once you reach your target A/FR with no knock, raise boost by 5 PSI or less. Repeat steps 5 through 7 until you reach your target boost PSI.
Once you’ve reached your target boost PSI and desired A/FR with no knock, increase timing by one degree and log another 3rd gear pull from 2000 RPM to redline. Again, keep a close eye on Knock, A/FR, and EGT’s.
Repeat step 8 until you see one degree of knock retard. At that point, reduce timing by one degree.  (Aim for high teens to low 20s for timing advance.  Higher is better.)
Finally, do a full run from 1st through 4th gear, watching Knock, A/FR, EGT’s, and boost. Watch knock especially closely. Ensure you run the car very hard. If you see any Knock, you may need to reduce timing. If you see that your A/FR’s are off, you may need to adjust your fuel.

utahspec wrote:

This is what I use to tune my other car. it might have a little more detail then what you can do with the safc but someone might find it usefull.

Lol that didn't confuse me.  The only part that is somewhat useful is the "Open Loop Tuning (WOT) Fuel & Timing".  But I already understand all of that.  Thanks for trying to help though Josh.

evildriver wrote:

Lol that didn't confuse me.  The only part that is somewhat useful is the "Open Loop Tuning (WOT) Fuel & Timing".  But I already understand all of that.  Thanks for trying to help though Josh.

timing and Air fuel driectly relate to each other.  how ever, you can not control timing with teh afc, so all you need to know is air fuel

nice thread. i think low throttle settings you can tune to a leaner mixture than the high throttle setting. correct or not?

Ok so for N/A applications, Lo throttle should be around 14 and Hi throttle should be 13.5?

only if your laptop doesnt have a serial plug. i almost got an adapter, but i checked my laptop and i guess i have one.

Where will I put the lc1?  Since there are only two bungs on the xs 4-1 shorty, and nothing on the midpipe.  Maybe I can get an 04 stock midpipe?

I think I remember someone saying the closer to the engine the better.  Thoughts?

Big J is T-pros an ebay midpipe or something?

Allen, since I have an 03 I don't have that o2 bung on the midpipe.  Boo for me, guess it's time to buy an aftermarket midpipe!

bump..

to answer one of my own questions, i think it is beneficial to unplug the o2 sensors before tuning, along with doing the tune drift relief.

I have been reading up on the in/out thing, and I'm not completely sure, but I think it is for adjusting for different MAF sensor sizes...for example, if you wanted to use a Q45 MAF in place of the stock spec v's...but I have a safc Neo and I'm not sure how the settings work.

my two cents very quickly;
 
       I'd lean it out a bit under partial throttle, not much, but definitely above stoich. it'll save gas, and when you got WOT you'll run cooler, basically cooler at higher RPM's, as you'd want to do anyway.
      Everyone has recommended using 4th gear for dyno pulls, as its closer to a 1-1 gear ratio.