After intializing my SAFC, and setting the knock sensor I was very happy to see that my engine didn't explode as I thought that it might.  Typical noob tuning jitters I suppose.  I will say this though-

THE BUTTON SEQUENCES ON THE SAFC CAN BE A BIT TRICKY TO MASTER AT FIRST...  YOU'RE SAFC MAY NOT INITIALIZE THE FIRST TIME THROUGH SO TO BE SAFE I RECCOMEND YOU DO IT SEVERAL TIMES IN A ROW, THEN SHUT THE CAR OFF TO MAKE SURE IT WORKS.  WHEN YOU TURN IT BACK ON AND START SETUP ALL THE SETTINGS SHOULD BE AT DEFAULT.  CHECK THE HI AND LO THROTTLE MAPS TO BE SURE THEY ARE AT 0!!!

I didn't check the hi-lo's, and it turns out that the SAFC didn't initialize properly and 0 out my settings... I was very lucky that my used SAFC2 came off of a Spec V so it wasn't an issue.

Upon startup (after re-doing everything CORRECTLY) your SES light will come on.  That is because the ECU will not recognize the o2's because by this point they are sitting in a shoebox half-way across the garage if you have followed my method.

The ECU will already be re-set because the battery was unplugged while you were wiring in the SAFC.  That ensures that you will be starting your tune from what has been dubbed "low maps" or essentially the default ECU map.

When I started my car up and drove a bit I was pleasantly suprised to see that the AFR's of the "low map" were around 16.  That may be a bit alarming to some of you, but bear in mind I am at 5000+ ft most of the year, and I am tuning for MPG's at this point.  I drove around for a while monitoring mainly knock.  If you are seeing AFR's that low then for the love of all thing V PLEASE DON'T ROMP ON IT lol there.  Now I don't know a lot about tuning from the knock sensor, but the engine felt rough so I pulled over and added +10's acrossed the board on both the high and lo throttle maps of the SAFC, and then set my hi/lo throttle points to 25% and 50%.  Afterwards everything smoothed out.

At this point I'll pause and post up a couple question that any tuning noob with half a brain should be asking.

1)  Very little is written on tuning by knock (although there are a few mentions of it - mainly by Gurov).  What is considered an acceptable level of knock reading on the SAFC?  Keep in mind that I never modified the stock knock sensor setup in any way.

2)  What is knock really, and when will the ECU start to pull timing due to knock?

3)  From everything I've read it seems as though AFR's are best left around 13-14 on the hi-throttle map.  After talking with Gurov about tuning for MPG's I discovered that 15-16 is acceptable on the lo-throttle map.  What are your thoughts/experiences on this?

05redser wrote:

Why would you take out your stock 02 sensors? i left both of mine in for closed loop and welded in a new 02 bung for my wideband when I was NA. Worked awesome. Also you dont want your wideband close to the motor as possible you want it in the bottom of the header or in the midpipe, it has to be at least 16 inches from the block due to heat stress (thats what zeitronix told me anyways)

if you take the o2 sensors out, the car enters permanent open loop, in this mode you can tune an part of the powerband.

Keep talking guy's I am starting to get a grip on this. lol! Nice write up sofar

So with the right tuning how much of a mpg increase do you get I have a auto (horribile gas milage) so I have to convince the wifey every Modification is to improve gas mileage!!! haha!~

Like it say's u need to fully remove the o2 sensors because of the heat generated from tuning can SOL the sensors! Good Idea!!

Also good idea to let professional tune car unless u have Uego sensor to monitor exhaust temps!!

I say set up initial tune on Dyno and then fine tune via road or corrections!! "Just good old logic"!

Eh... this is a noob'tune thread for a reason.  People are allowed to be wrong in here... hopefully we'll all get through this together lol

Yes, the removal of the o2 sensors is dual purpose.  You can just unplug them, which is ideal for learning how to tune because as Gurov stated it throws the car into permanent open loop.  It is best to remove them completiely because as far as I understand it the stock sensors (and most wideband sensors as well) preheat on startup.  Now I'm not 100% on this but I think it is to keep from damaging the sensor due to uneven temps (therefore causing uneven expansion/contraction).  So they are not just affected by the increased temps that are caused by leaning out the fuel curve (although that deffinately happens) but even "stock" levels of heat can damage an unplugged sensor.

You also get a couple of free exhaust bungs which is nice lol.  I've got a bosch wideband sensor in one, and will be adding an egt in the other.

So far I am having great results, and although I am technically savvy, tuning an NA Spec V using the LM-1 and SAFC2 is almost a no brainer.  It's also a lot of fun .  I enjoy the look on my passenger's faces when I get on the highway and set the cruise control, and then slowly "turn down the fuel" while watching my afr's.  Make me feel like a super-scientist.

My best MPG's so far were a little over 40mpg  doing 70 in sixth gear down highway 470 from the south end of denver all the way to the north end.  Keep in mind I'm tuning on 91 octane, and running a short ram intake (until yesterday... more later) and I monitor the knock after each 1% change for a couple of mile.  I believe my afr's were right around 16, and knock sensor showed 0 peak from one end of 470 to the other.  The sweet spot seem to be right around 15.8-16 afr at 3000 rpm.

At this point any of you that were considering switching to E-85 should be deep in thought lol.  Stoich on gasoline is 14.7, while stoich on E-85 is a wasteful 9.0.  Stoich (stoimetrich) is the air to fuel ratio of a given fuel at it's most efficicient combustion cycle (it's late... i know i could have worded that better, but deal with it lol)  Now I'm tuning on 91-octane, while E-85 is the equivalent of around 105-110 octane.  That is great for people on boost that really need the extra octane (you think regular is expensive... you should see that price on 110 octane lolz I almost fell over last time I looked - nearly $150 to fill a spec v).  Well if you are tuning NA, and are trying to save money on gas, don't bother with E-85...  If you figure that you need to burn approximately 40% more e-85 than gas to maintain stoich, and e-85 is about 40% cheaper... well you get the point.  All you will end up with is a car that travels 40% less before needing to fill up.

So E-85 may be cheap race gas, but it is not a cheap alternative to regular - at least not on an NA tune.

Okay now on to the air filter changeup...  I have been running half of my AEM CAI for a couple of years now using a JWT filter set up... the JWT filter is huge, and includes a nice polished plenum.  Well since leaning out my car I have noticed slightly higher underhood temps (to be expected since my header has no heat shield).  I switched over to the full CAI setup this weekend, and put on a shiny new full stainless filter. (No cotton element - just ss mesh)  The filter is great... it flows so much more air than my dirty old cotton element filter... lol.  K... so follow me close on this as many seasoned tuners are already grinning and shaking their heads at us noob'tunez.

FILTER RELOCATED VIA THE REST OF MY AEM CAI RE-INSTALLED = COOLER AIR
NEW HI-FLO SS MESH FILTER (DAMN THING IS SO BLING-TASTIC I WAS HAPPY TO HIDE IT BEHIND THE BUMPER) = DRASTIC IMPROVEMENT IN AIRFLOW
I GET BACK IN MY CAR HAPPY AS CAN BE AND START IT AND GUESS WHAT?  ALL MY CAREFUL TUNING OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS GOES TO SHIZZLE RIGHT?!  WE'RE TALKING AIR/FUEL RATIOS - SO MORE AIR MEANS I NEED TO ADD MORE FUEL NOW RIGHT?

(SORRY - I'M NOT REALLY YELLING, BUT THIS IS FUNNY AND NEAT AND ANYBODY IN THIS THREAD JUST HAS TO NOM THE DELICIOUS IRONY)

WELL I AM TUNING OFF BOTH AFR'S AND KNOCK, SO RELOCATING THE NEW FILTER HAS A SEVERAL PRONGED EFFECT.  YES MY CAREFULLY TUNED AFR'S WENT ALL TO SHIT - AS WHERE EVERYTHING ON MY LOW THROTTLE MAP WAS GIVING AFR'S OF 15.8-16,  I NOW WAS SEEING 17'S AND UP.  AND A BAJILLION KNOCK RIGHT?  WELL NO - IN FACT I STILL HAD VERY LITTLE TO NIL KNOCK.  AND HERE COMES THE NOOB'TUNEZ LESSON OF THE WEEK.  I DIDN'T JUST ADD MORE AIR - I HAD ADDED COOLER/DENSER AIR.  SUCKING IN WARMER UNDERHOOD AIR WAS LIMITING ME BECAUSE KNOCK/DETONATION CAN BE FURTHERED BY AIR THAT IS TOO HOT - WHICH HAS TO BE OFFSET BY SQUIRTING MORE FUEL.  COLDER DENSER AIR WILL ALLOW YOU TO TUNE FURTHER OUT TO THE EDGE WITHOUGH GETTING KNOCK.

JUST ANOTHER FACET TO THE ADVENTURE...  WE ALL KNOW THAT CAI'S ARE JUST BETTER (EXCEPT IN PUDDLES)  AND I LIKE MOST OF YOU HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN WHY.  iT WAS REALLY COOL TO SEE FIRST HAND THROUGH MY OWN EXPERIMENTING ALL THE DIFFERENT REASONS WHY.

k i'm done caps-locking now lol...  Plz any questions or comments of course are welcome.  And plz do not browbeat any newb mis-information (i won't name names - you were both wrong anyway - nom the irony) as this is a journal of the first-time tuning experience of a newb lol.  (I REALLY studied a lot first though, and I recommend all of you do too.)

THERE IS ANOTHER LESSON IN THIS FOR YOU FIRST TIMERZ... CLEAN YOUR AIR FILTER THOROUGHLY BEFORE TUNING.  LOL I DIDN'T... WAHT A PAIN IN DAH ASS TO RETUNE.

Last edited by SPECial Sauce (2008-08-02 03:44:34)

SPECial Sauce wrote:

Eh... this is a noob'tune thread for a reason.  People are allowed to be wrong in here... hopefully we'll all get through this together lol

Yes, the removal of the o2 sensors is dual purpose.  You can just unplug them, which is ideal for learning how to tune because as Gurov stated it throws the car into permanent open loop.  It is best to remove them completiely because as far as I understand it the stock sensors (and most wideband sensors as well) preheat on startup.  Now I'm not 100% on this but I think it is to keep from damaging the sensor due to uneven temps (therefore causing uneven expansion/contraction).  So they are not just affected by the increased temps that are caused by leaning out the fuel curve (although that deffinately happens) but even "stock" levels of heat can damage an unplugged sensor.

You also get a couple of free exhaust bungs which is nice lol.  I've got a bosch wideband sensor in one, and will be adding an egt in the other.

So far I am having great results, and although I am technically savvy, tuning an NA Spec V using the LM-1 and SAFC2 is almost a no brainer.  It's also a lot of fun .  I enjoy the look on my passenger's faces when I get on the highway and set the cruise control, and then slowly "turn down the fuel" while watching my afr's.  Make me feel like a super-scientist.

My best MPG's so far were a little over 40mpg  doing 70 in sixth gear down highway 470 from the south end of denver all the way to the north end.  Keep in mind I'm tuning on 91 octane, and running a short ram intake (until yesterday... more later) and I monitor the knock after each 1% change for a couple of mile.  I believe my afr's were right around 16, and knock sensor showed 0 peak from one end of 470 to the other.  The sweet spot seem to be right around 15.8-16 afr at 3000 rpm.

At this point any of you that were considering switching to E-85 should be deep in thought lol.  Stoich on gasoline is 14.7, while stoich on E-85 is a wasteful 9.0.  Stoich (stoimetrich) is the air to fuel ratio of a given fuel at it's most efficicient combustion cycle (it's late... i know i could have worded that better, but deal with it lol)  Now I'm tuning on 91-octane, while E-85 is the equivalent of around 105-110 octane.  That is great for people on boost that really need the extra octane (you think regular is expensive... you should see that price on 110 octane lolz I almost fell over last time I looked - nearly $150 to fill a spec v).  Well if you are tuning NA, and are trying to save money on gas, don't bother with E-85...  If you figure that you need to burn approximately 40% more e-85 than gas to maintain stoich, and e-85 is about 40% cheaper... well you get the point.  All you will end up with is a car that travels 40% less before needing to fill up.

So E-85 may be cheap race gas, but it is not a cheap alternative to regular - at least not on an NA tune.

Okay now on to the air filter changeup...  I have been running half of my AEM CAI for a couple of years now using a JWT filter set up... the JWT filter is huge, and includes a nice polished plenum.  Well since leaning out my car I have noticed slightly higher underhood temps (to be expected since my header has no heat shield).  I switched over to the full CAI setup this weekend, and put on a shiny new full stainless filter. (No cotton element - just ss mesh)  The filter is great... it flows so much more air than my dirty old cotton element filter... lol.  K... so follow me close on this as many seasoned tuners are already grinning and shaking their heads at us noob'tunez.

FILTER RELOCATED VIA THE REST OF MY AEM CAI RE-INSTALLED = COOLER AIR
NEW HI-FLO SS MESH FILTER (DAMN THING IS SO BLING-TASTIC I WAS HAPPY TO HIDE IT BEHIND THE BUMPER) = DRASTIC IMPROVEMENT IN AIRFLOW
I GET BACK IN MY CAR HAPPY AS CAN BE AND START IT AND GUESS WHAT?  ALL MY CAREFUL TUNING OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS GOES TO SHIZZLE RIGHT?!  WE'RE TALKING AIR/FUEL RATIOS - SO MORE AIR MEANS I NEED TO ADD MORE FUEL NOW RIGHT?

(SORRY - I'M NOT REALLY YELLING, BUT THIS IS FUNNY AND NEAT AND ANYBODY IN THIS THREAD JUST HAS TO NOM THE DELICIOUS IRONY)

WELL I AM TUNING OFF BOTH AFR'S AND KNOCK, SO RELOCATING THE NEW FILTER HAS A SEVERAL PRONGED EFFECT.  YES MY CAREFULLY TUNED AFR'S WENT ALL TO SHIT - AS WHERE EVERYTHING ON MY LOW THROTTLE MAP WAS GIVING AFR'S OF 15.8-16,  I NOW WAS SEEING 17'S AND UP.  AND A BAJILLION KNOCK RIGHT?  WELL NO - IN FACT I STILL HAD VERY LITTLE TO NIL KNOCK.  AND HERE COMES THE NOOB'TUNEZ LESSON OF THE WEEK.  I DIDN'T JUST ADD MORE AIR - I HAD ADDED COOLER/DENSER AIR.  SUCKING IN WARMER UNDERHOOD AIR WAS LIMITING ME BECAUSE KNOCK/DETONATION CAN BE FURTHERED BY AIR THAT IS TOO HOT - WHICH HAS TO BE OFFSET BY SQUIRTING MORE FUEL.  COLDER DENSER AIR WILL ALLOW YOU TO TUNE FURTHER OUT TO THE EDGE WITHOUGH GETTING KNOCK.

JUST ANOTHER FACET TO THE ADVENTURE...  WE ALL KNOW THAT CAI'S ARE JUST BETTER (EXCEPT IN PUDDLES)  AND I LIKE MOST OF YOU HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN WHY.  iT WAS REALLY COOL TO SEE FIRST HAND THROUGH MY OWN EXPERIMENTING ALL THE DIFFERENT REASONS WHY.

k i'm done caps-locking now lol...  Plz any questions or comments of course are welcome.  And plz do not browbeat any newb mis-information (i won't name names - you were both wrong anyway - nom the irony) as this is a journal of the first-time tuning experience of a newb lol.  (I REALLY studied a lot first though, and I recommend all of you do too.)

THERE IS ANOTHER LESSON IN THIS FOR YOU FIRST TIMERZ... CLEAN YOUR AIR FILTER THOROUGHLY BEFORE TUNING.  LOL I DIDN'T... WAHT A PAIN IN DAH ASS TO RETUNE.

IDK if I would have had the paitience to type all that out but anyways.

Last edited by 05redser (2008-08-04 20:59:41)

bump for anyone looking to tune...this is helpful stuff.

The SAFC2 is nice cause you can monitor knock, BUT its not 100% needed.. You can do it without it. Its just a nice feature. You can buy a knock light and it will light up if it sees knock.

BIGPAPA333 wrote:

is the Innovate LM-1 wideband  the same as the UEGO

Well its different..But it does the same thing.. its a wideband.